I know there isn't one stop shopping for immunos. WE have 5-6 different 
companies we purchase from because, let's face it, I might get a better 
titer from company A than company B. Company B might not have the exact 
clone I need or whatever.
    What's frying my cookies is that I told my company to look at other 
alternatives before leaping. They didn't, so now they come to me to fix it. 
I can't fix this one. I just am tired of hearing them whine about the cost. 
Maybe they'll listen next time.

Joe
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jasper, Thomas G." 
To: "Joe Nocito" 
Cc: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 10:10 AM
Subject: RE: [Histonet] Automation Ventana vs. Dako


Hey Joe,

No flaming, what you're saying has validity.  In thinking all this over it's 
never one size fits all (see my last post).
I agree the pricing is high, but for us (and others probably) the "true 
cost" works out all right (for now anyway).  Please don't get me wrong I 
think Dako is good stuff and other folks are solidly behind different 
automated systems.  I'd like to believe these systems have their good points 
as well.  And you know competition is good for everyone, so there you have 
it.
Keep at it Joe, guys like you keep things honest and healthy.
Tom J.
-----Original Message-----
From: histonet-bounces@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-bounces@lists.utsouthwestern.edu]On Behalf Of Joe
Nocito
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 6:30 PM
To: Sebree Linda A.; Carla Frenchko; Heather Renko;
histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Subject: Re: [Histonet] Automation Ventana vs. Dako


flaming time.
    If the whole idea of a machine is to walk away, why would anyone apply
the primary manually? That defeats the purpose of the machine. If I have to
apply one reagent manually, might as well apply it all manually.
    As far as using the refillable dispensers, you can only do that a
certain number of times before you;
    A-use a new dispenser or
    B- use the same dispenser, but replace the barcode label.
Either way, you are adding an additional cost that isn't formulated into the
equation when Ventana gives someone a cost/slide. I call that "creative
accounting".
    No, I am not a fan of Ventana ( can you tell?), but I have several
friends that work for Ventana. It's not the people, just the corporate
mentality I can't digest.
    So you see, no matter how you slice it, Ventana's machines do not have
the "ability" to even be a partially open system.
        I know I'll be hearing about this again. So, as not to be a coward,
here's my signature block. Hell, I'll even add the telephone number so y'all
won't have to look it up.  Those of you know where I work, I'll be expecting
a phone call either to me or my CEO. You know who you are. I've been told by
my CEO before to back off. It hasn't worked before, it won't happen this
time either.
    One other thing. As always, my opinions do not reflect the opinions of
my employers and even some of my co-workers, lawyers, housekeeping, used car
salepeople, etc.
    Commence the flaming. (Is it Friday yet?)

Joe Nocito BS, HT(ASCP)QIHC
Histology Manager
Pathology Reference Lab
San Antonio, TX
210-892-3747 (that's my direct line)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sebree Linda A." 
To: "Carla Frenchko" ; "Heather Renko"
; 
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 7:52 AM
Subject: RE: [Histonet] Automation Ventana vs. Dako


Misconception here:  you can run antibodies from any company on Ventana
instruments either by putting them in a user-fillable Ventana dispenser
or by manually applying the antibody in a titration mode run.  We do
both of these as well  as use some of Ventana's antibodies.

The only thing you  are "married to" is their detection chemistries,
biotin block (if using) and  amplification (if using).  You can employ
your own enzyme digestion reagent and counterstain if desired.  If
performing antigen retrieval on line, you also are wed to  Ventana's
Cell Conditioning solutions (HIER buffers)....although nothing prevents
you from using your own HIER methods and reagents off-line which is what
we do when using our NexES instrument.

Just trying to clear a few things up.

Linda Sebree, HT(ASCP)
University of Wisconsin Hospital & Clinics
IHC/ISH Laboratory
A4/204-3224
600 Highland Ave.
Madison, WI 53792
(608)265-6596
FAX: (608)262-7174


-----Original Message-----
From: histonet-bounces@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-bounces@lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Carla
Frenchko
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 6:53 AM
To: Heather Renko; histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Subject: RE: [Histonet] Automation Ventana vs. Dako


With all due respect to Heather; but the reason the Ventana is not
really an "open" system is that you are "married" to a particular
vendor's antibodies and detection. In a true "open" system most any
company's antibodies will run with the instrument's detection
(specifically speaking of both the Dako and Biogenex instruments having
run both).
Sincerely,
Carla

-----Original Message-----
From: histonet-bounces@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-bounces@lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Heather
Renko
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 10:22 PM
To: histonet@lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Subject: [Histonet] Automation Ventana vs. Dako

As an ex Ventana Tech Rep (not sales) I can say that you really have to
judge what instrument is best suited for your volume and your staffing.
Ventana is a great company with a great product but, very expensive.
Can you rely on it-yes, Can any tech run it with minimal training-yes.
Have they had lot issues with detection, sure but name a company that
hasn't run into that at some point.  Dako on the other hand is very
reliable and has the market on good antibodies. Can anyone run it-not
without a bit of hands training.  It seems to be more affordable than
Ventana but, you have to have a good staff that can consistently
reproduce steps and make up dilutions.  With Ventana you can cut, dry,
put it on the instrument and then walk away-reproducible and consistent
pretty much every time.  With Ventana you can also create an open system
and run some great Dako antibodies or any other vendors products for
that fact.  Your only marrried to their detection.  Both companies seem
 to have good tech support and Dako has allot of really sharp
publications to get you off and running.  Unfortunately in today's
histology labs we are seeing such an increase in staffing changes that
it is sometimes better to pay the extra money and let the Ventana
Benchmark do the work and not worry about it.  On the other hand if you
have a good tech staff that can be "cooks in the kitchen" than Dako
seems to be a pretty good instrument too.  I welcome you to listen to
your peers-its just simply finding out which company will suit your
needs and what your budget will endure.  Just my un-bias two cents.  I
wish you all the best in your decison making process.

  Heather

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