This is an interesting thread.  I have a two year degree in studio art as
well as a BS in Biology and an MS in Neuroscience.  I was quite suprized
when I was taking classes in cognition of sound and sight to be hearing
about the same principles of perception that I had been taught in art!
Artists need to understand how we percieve the world in order to create
interesting art that relates the message they are trying to get across.
Scientists are trying to understand how we percieve in order to
better our lives in general.

Histology is about bettering our perception of biologic function.  It is
both art and science.  I think thats why relatively few people are any
good at it.

Karen Pawlowski

On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Tim Morken wrote:

> Art and science are not so far apart. Many think of art as something 
> made up out of nothing and science as something built on experimetal 
> knowledge. In fact, both are creative endeavors built on previous 
> knowledge. Artists and scientists bring to the work whatever their 
> experiences have been. 
> 
> I can't even say that the methods of artists and scientists are 
> different. If you read the methods of Ansel Adams, the great 
> photographer, his descriptions of how he approaches his work are all 
> mathamatical rather than abstractions. A sculptor using acrylics I was 
> reading about created a method of making large hollow spheres, which 
> turned out to be perfect for deep-sea submersibles. On the other hand, 
> if you read about how Kary Mullis 'invented' the Polymerase Chain 
> Reaction, it is pure art!
> 
> To me, what makes something science is that you are meticulous in 
> describing what happens when you do a procedure. You keep track of the 
> variables and the outcomes. In this way you build a knowledge base 
> which helps you determine what happens in particular procedure. If you 
> continually have problems with a procedure you are probably not paying 
> attention to the details. The fact the things are constantly modified 
> does not mean it is more of an 'art' than a 'science.' It means the 
> variables change and you have to modify other things to account for 
> that. A scientist will know what to modify, or at least where to 
> start. The fact you 'know' when something is going to be different, 
> means you have a large amount of experience to draw from.
> 
> Histotechs have to be scientists to do well, but that doesn't exclude 
> them as artists!
> 
> Tim Morken, B.A., EMT(MSA), HTL(ASCP)  
> Infectious Disease Pathology 
> Centers for Disease Control 
> MS-G32 
> 1600 Clifton Rd. 
> Atlanta, GA 30333 
> USA 
>  
> email: tim9@cdc.gov 
>        timcdc@hotmail.com 
>  
> FAX:  (404)639-3043 
>  
> 
> 
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Maria  L. Rivera" <mlr@aretha.jax.org>
> To: "R.Wadley" <s9803537@pop3.unsw.edu.au>, 
> 
> HistoNet@Pathology.swmed.edu
> Subject: Re: Histology as a science not an art.
> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 06:34:25 -0400
> 
> Rob,
> Histology is an Art and a Science. When the proceedures do not work or 
> 
> need
> a little "tweaking" 
> Histotechs get a little creative, we do magic. We fuss with the water, 
> 
> the
> heat, add a little, take a little, twist a little (sound like a song). 
> 
> Not
> so scientific, eh? Then again when we "KNOW" that the solutions are
> weak/strong or a sequence has been left out/added, we dive into the 
> 
> books,
> hurry to the histonet, modify, note the modifications, cut and paste 
> 
> and
> there you go, a "NEW" and improved "modified" version of a stain. 
> Most of this is NOT a science, but the knowledge of what normally 
> 
> works
> somewhere might not work everywhere. So we dabble into our potions, 
> 
> books
> of magic and serve up them to the Pathologist who says "I don't care 
> 
> how
> you do it, but I want it NOW"
> Most of us have our own "little magic" books, either in our heads or
> written somewhere.
> Most Labs even have their own "modified" versions of standard 
> 
> proceedures,
> ALL OF US have that little "munchkin" inside that says, "WHAT IF". 
> 
> That is
> what "modifications" are made of. You take away the "ART" and you lose 
> 
> the
> WHAT IF.
> Look around the lab, everyday you will see us running around trying to 
> 
> make
> something that SHOULD work but isn't, WORK. When all fails we get a 
> 
> little
> creative.
> If it worked all the time, machines can do it. Histology what FUN.
> Histotechs sure are "gems in the rough. "
> The dowgrading has made us more valuable, see, MONKEYS CAN'T do what 
> 
> we do.
> Which is THINK.
> Getting off my soapbox.
> Maria
> 
> 
> 
> At 04:41 PM 4/13/1999 +1000, R.Wadley wrote:
> >	Dear All,
> >
> >	I would like to comment on the statement "Histology is an art 
> 
> and
> >everybody has their own way of making things work for them."  Please 
> 
> be
> >assured that this not a personal attack on the writer, it is a 
> 
> comment on
> >how histology is regarded by many of my peers.
> >
> >"Histology is an art and everybody has their own way of making things 
> 
> work
> >for them."
> >
> >	This is the justification used to downgrade the teaching of 
> 
> histology
> >everywhere.  I was lucky I did A Bachelor of Applied Science in 
> 
> Medical
> >Laboratory Science, I got to major in Histopathology & Haematology, 
> 
> the
> >histo major was 3 units, it included all the basic routines, special 
> 
> stains
> >plus cytology, karyotyping, electron microscopy, museum techniques 
> 
> and
> >autoradiography.  This degree has now reduced the histology component
> >severely.  I have since completed a Graduate Diploma in Microscopy &
> >Microanalysis, which attempted to squeeze histology into 4 days.  It 
> 
> is
> >commonly held in some circles that histology can be done by any 
> 
> monkey,
> >trained staff are not necessarily required.
> >
> >	I consider histology to be a science, just like haematology, 
> 
> microbiology
> >& clinical chemistry.  I agree that particular talents are required 
> 
> by
> >histologists to get the most out of this field.  But to write 
> 
> histology off
> >as an art form, something akin to voodoo & black magic belittles 
> 
> everyone
> >who works in the field.  We may all have our own little variations, 
> 
> but let
> >us understand that these differences are based on scientific 
> 
> preference not
> >art.
> >
> >	I think I shall now pull my head in, before someone cuts it 
> 
> off.
> >
> >	Regards
> >	
> >	Rob W.
> >
> >
> >
> >R. Wadley, B.App.Sc, M.L.S
> >Laboratory Manager
> >Cellular Analysis Facility
> >School of Microbiology & Immunology
> >UNSW, New South Wales, Australia, 2052
> >Ph (BH) 	+61 (2) 9385 3517
> >Ph (AH)	+61 (2) 9555 1239
> >Fax 	+61 (2) 9385 1591
> >E-mail	r.wadley@unsw.edu.au
> >www	http://www.unsw.edu.au/clients/microbiology/CAF.html
> >	(Under development)
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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