So very well said - I never take time to make sure my responses make sense.
thanks for clearing things up.....have a good weekend everybody!!! J:>)
Joyce Weems
Pathology Manager
Saint Joseph's Hospital of Atlanta


	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Bryan Hewlett [SMTP:bhewlett@cogeco.ca]
	Sent:	Thursday, April 25, 2002 5:57 PM
	To:	rueggp; Weems, Joyce
	Cc:	SEENRD@aol.com; histonet@pathology.swmed.edu
	Subject:	Re: GI biopsy blues

	I'll just add the following to the very valid comments of Joyce and
Patsy.
	It is true that, with some wax formulations, too rapid a cooling can
seem to
	affect the plasticity of the wax. Which, after storage of the blocks
at
	warmer temperatures appears to restore itself. It is also true that,
trace
	amounts of clearing agent in the wax may give a softer consistency
to the
	block on initial cutting, while after a time in storage evaporation
from the
	surface removes these traces of clearant and the block will now have
a
	harder consistency on recutting.
	That said, we have seen the artefact on recuts for special stains
taken the
	next day. We have also seen it on sections taken over a year later
for
	research purposes.
	As I said before, slow recutting cures it!

	We have been present during rapid cutting of GI section ribbons,
stepped in
	for demonstration purposes, and finished the ribbon the tech was
cutting.
	After mounting and staining sections from the leading and trailing
portions
	of the ribbon, the leading sections(i.e.rapid cuts) showed
chattering, the
	trailing sections didn't.
	Over the years, we've had our share of  pathologists and techs
alike, who
	doubt this explanation for the cause of this very frustrating
artefact.
	The following demonstration has usually stemmed objections. Recut a
block
	which has shown the artefact, after cutting a ribbon rapidly, mount
and
	stain two or three sections. Cut a second ribbon very slowly, mount
and
	stain, compare.

	Finally, to Patsy.
	I enjoyed the description of your visit to the UK. It brought back
many
	memories. I was born and trained in Nottingham(Queen's was being
built as I
	left) and spent many hours walking the peak district.Used to go
climbing in
	Skye!
	 I must also admit to enjoying a pint or ten at the "Trip".

	Regards

	Bryan

	Bryan R. Hewlett
	Technical Specialist
	Department of Anatomical Pathology
	Hamilton Regional Laboratory Medicine Program.
	Ontario, Canada
	----- Original Message -----
	From: "rueggp" 
	To: "Weems, Joyce" 
	Cc: "'Bryan Hewlett'" ; ;
	
	Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 3:50 PM
	Subject: Re: GI biopsy blues


	> Joyce is right about polymers hardening with time and heat.  Cold
can
	actually
	> inhibit polymerization, heat can accelerate polymerization, which
may
	explain
	> why putting your block into the heated water bath works better
than
	cooling
	> sometimes.
	> Patsy
	>
	> "Weems, Joyce" wrote:
	>
	> > Let me say this about recutting later......I discussed this with
Ada
	Feldman
	> > of Anatech several years ago. It would seem that the polymers
harden
	more
	> > with time than with cold, therefore allowing for better sections
later.
	You
	> > don't have to cut slowly for the recuts - just whack them off
and most
	> > likely they'll be ok.
	> >
	> > I have found this to be one of the most frustrating of artifacts
ever to
	> > deal with!
	> >
	> > Another thing I found good was putting the block in the warm
water bath
	for
	> > a few seconds, then cooling and sectioning. The warm water
seemed to
	work
	> > wonders. The slow...... steady turning of the microtome is
essential for
	the
	> > first cuts of these creatures, tho.
	> >
	> > My 2 cents! j:>)
	> >
	> > Joyce Weems
	> > Pathology Manager
	> > Saint Joseph's Hospital of Atlanta
	> >
	> >         -----Original Message-----
	> >         From:   Bryan Hewlett [SMTP:bhewlett@cogeco.ca]
	> >         Sent:   Thursday, April 25, 2002 12:56 PM
	> >         To:     SEENRD@aol.com; histonet@pathology.swmed.edu
	> >         Subject:        Re: GI biopsy blues
	> >
	> >         Donna,
	> >
	> >         We process and cut large numbers of GI biopsies daily in
three
	group
	> > laboratories. Only one lab has a processor dedicated to GI
biopsies, the
	> > other labs process along with the routine surgicals. All three
sites
	> > sporadically have some days with microchatter(venetian
blinding). All
	sites
	> > use NBF for fixation, all use the same processing reagents, all
cool the
	> > blocks on ice trays, no ammonia water.
	> >         This cuttting artifact is independent of processing
times, it is
	> > seen more readily after short(less than 4 hours) fixation times
in NBF.
	> > After all, the shorter the time in NBF the greater the fixation
in
	> > processing alcohols!  But the cause is still operator and
workload
	> > dependant.
	> >         The effect is mainly seen on very busy days with
technologists
	who
	> > are under pressure, either real or imagined, to 'get the work
out'. In
	every
	> > case, when the block has been re-cut and the same operator
instructed to
	cut
	> > SLOWLY, the microchatters have been absent!!
	> >         I would recommend that when any tech in your lab has a
	microchatter
	> > episode with a case, carefull, SLOW, re-cuts of the block will
solve the
	> > problem.
	> >
	> >         Regards
	> >
	> >         Bryan
	> >
	> >         Bryan R. Hewlett
	> >         Technical Specialist
	> >         Department of Anatomical Pathology
	> >         Hamilton Regional Laboratory Medicine Program.
	> >         Ontario, Canada
	> >
	> >                 ----- Original Message -----
	> >                 From: SEENRD@aol.com 
	> >                 To: histonet@pathology.swmed.edu
	> > 
	> >                 Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 5:53 PM
	> >                 Subject: GI biopsy blues
	> >
	> >                 Hi Everyone,
	> >
	> >                 I am faced with some GI microchatter that has
occurred
	> > recently.  This is a sporadic matter but as of this afternoon, I
am
	> > currently ensued in a battle with my lab manager over the
soaking of
	blocks
	> > in ammonia water. She thinks everything needs to be soaked, I
say it is
	not
	> > necessary but she is insistent and I want to change her mind. I
see no
	need
	> > to expose myself to ammonia fumes unecessarily.
	> >
	> >                 I have one tech that soaks everything in ammonia
water
	and
	> > there is no difference between her slides and the ones I cut
that are
	faced
	> > and placed onto wet ice. I am literally at wits end regarding
this
	subject
	> > and do not want to submit to "ingesting" ammonia water if at all
	possible.
	> > Are there any articles written on ways to prevent microchatter?
One last
	> > thing I should mention is that we process our GI biopsies along
with our
	> > other larger samples (breast, colon, thyroid, etc) and
everything else
	comes
	> > out looking great.  I am not at work at the moment and can't
remember
	our
	> > processing schedule right of the top of my head but the
solutions we are
	> > using is as follows: formalin x2, 80% ETOH, 95% ETOH x2, ABS x3,
xylene
	and
	> > of course infiltrating with paraffin. I will post the exact
scheduling
	and
	> > temps later as I can't recall those now.
	> >
	> >                 Any suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks in
advance,
	> >
	> >                 Donna Barlow
	> >                 Section Head, Raleigh Community Hospital
	> >
	>